Hello

[Owen]

If that's what you call understanding astrology as a science...Whatever no point in having a conversation. Believe what you want.

Okay, stop moaning.

True.

[Don Danko333]

The big secret in the know is the big western astrologers all use sidereal when it comes to themselves and their own private work as it works. They mention they use topical for clients because they want this despite its not workable. They want to make money.

How hard is it to just adjust the 12 signs to where the stars really are adjust for procession and put the lunar mansions into the chart that is all they would have to do to fix western astrology that is what it used to look like before the church banned astrology.

[HPSZolaLuckyStar]

"The big secret in the know is the big western astrologers all use sidereal when it comes to themselves and their own private work as it works. They mention they use topical for clients because they want this despite its not workable. They want to make money.

How hard is it to just adjust the 12 signs to where the stars really are and put the lunar mansions into the chart that is all they would have to do to fix western astrology that is what it used to look like before the church banned astrology."

So true. I found this out a while ago. If memory serves, there (in the sidereal) chart is another house.
oh, I had to go look up the name its a strange one hard to remember.
Ophiuchus
serpent bearer

[The Astro Warrior]

If that's what you call understanding astrology as a science...Whatever no point in having a conversation. Believe what you want.

Okay, stop moaning.

Due to Owen’s lackluster defense of western astrology to say the least I suppose I will have to step in here as well, I do agree with a lot you have to say regarding the left hand path, Satanism, “reverse torah ritual”, and returning to the old gods however you seem to have taken your bad experience with western occultism and transformed it into an obsession for eastern systems which you also attempt to mix with western pagan systems which is odd for someone who believes in racialist paganism. Just as you seem to view only eastern methods as correct you constantly assert only eastern astrology is accurate. Just because western astrology has had to innovate and reinvent itself does not make it inaccurate and just because sidereal astrology was used in ancient times does not make it accurate. In many ways I would argue that western astrology’s innovations over the years make it a superior system including hypothetical points (pof, vertex, Lilith, etc), outer planets influence (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto), the placidius house system, synastry, and a lot more

Your main argument relies on the position of the stars at birth, while western astrology doesn’t have the exact position of the planets at birth that isn’t the point it follows a fixed seasonal movement. Your system isn’t any more accurate for 4 reasons detailed in Ending the War Between the Astrologers.
“There are several reasons for Vedic astrologers to stop this practice:

1. Even in their own field, there is disagreement about where the Zodiac starts. At least in Western astrology there is no similar ambiguity.

2. Vedic astrologers do not use the constellations as they really are any more than Western astrologers do. If they did so, then the sign of Scorpio as used by Vedic astrologers would have to be at least twice the size of the sign of Libra (since the constellations are so different in size). The use of 30 degrees per sign is a complete departure from the physical reality of the constellations.

3. Vedic astrology uses the Zodiacal signs very differently than Western astrology. For example, Western astrologers successfully determine a person's temperament by seeing which element is most predominate (i.e. the one that most of their planets are in). This sign-based technique is not present in Vedic astrology because it doesn't work using Sidereal signs. (Note, however, that Vedic astrology does have very effective techniques for assessing temperament.)

4. The Tropical Zodiac, used by Western astrologers, is a completely valid coordinate system that accurately reflects the seasonal changes on Earth. In other words, this Zodiac is more directly rooted in the physical reality of life on Earth than the Sidereal Zodiac based upon the distant stars.”

It is also quite ridiculous to assert that the millions of people who use western astrology and have found it to be accurate for their own lives, including some on this forum, are just wrong because it’s not the ancient system. People should use what works for them, if you feel drawn to vedic astrology and find it accurate for your own life that’s fine but that doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong. Some astrologers come to the same conclusion about a person when reading both vedic and western charts as a whole. Western astrology can also be used for accurate predictions and has been many times. Why in your view has western astrology remained so popular if it’s apparently ineffective? If it was so inaccurate why do so many people feel it accurately reflects them and their personality? Both systems can be used effectively just as modern medicine and traditional remedies can both be used to maintain health.

Anyway I don’t have anything against you, if you want to pursue eastern systems than that’s fine different people are drawn to different belief systems that resonate and work for them. Each person’s path is individual and what might work for one does not work for the other. I have personally found western astrology to be accurate in my case and I never resonated with vedic astrology or eastern systems if you do that’s fine just don’t assume that everyone else is wrong in an appeal to tradition fallacy.

[Raven]

If that's what you call understanding astrology as a science...Whatever no point in having a conversation. Believe what you want.

Okay, stop moaning.

Due to Owen’s lackluster defense of western astrology to say the least I suppose I will have to step in here as well, I do agree with a lot you have to say regarding the left hand path, Satanism, “reverse torah ritual”, and returning to the old gods however you seem to have taken your bad experience with western occultism and transformed it into an obsession for eastern systems which you also attempt to mix with western pagan systems which is odd for someone who believes in racialist paganism. Just as you seem to view only eastern methods as correct you constantly assert only eastern astrology is accurate. Just because western astrology has had to innovate and reinvent itself does not make it inaccurate and just because sidereal astrology was used in ancient times does not make it accurate. In many ways I would argue that western astrology’s innovations over the years make it a superior system including hypothetical points (pof, vertex, Lilith, etc), outer planets influence (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto), the placidius house system, synastry, and a lot more

Your main argument relies on the position of the stars at birth, while western astrology doesn’t have the exact position of the planets at birth that isn’t the point it follows a fixed seasonal movement. Your system isn’t any more accurate for 4 reasons detailed in Ending the War Between the Astrologers.
“There are several reasons for Vedic astrologers to stop this practice:

1. Even in their own field, there is disagreement about where the Zodiac starts. At least in Western astrology there is no similar ambiguity.

2. Vedic astrologers do not use the constellations as they really are any more than Western astrologers do. If they did so, then the sign of Scorpio as used by Vedic astrologers would have to be at least twice the size of the sign of Libra (since the constellations are so different in size). The use of 30 degrees per sign is a complete departure from the physical reality of the constellations.

3. Vedic astrology uses the Zodiacal signs very differently than Western astrology. For example, Western astrologers successfully determine a person's temperament by seeing which element is most predominate (i.e. the one that most of their planets are in). This sign-based technique is not present in Vedic astrology because it doesn't work using Sidereal signs. (Note, however, that Vedic astrology does have very effective techniques for assessing temperament.)

4. The Tropical Zodiac, used by Western astrologers, is a completely valid coordinate system that accurately reflects the seasonal changes on Earth. In other words, this Zodiac is more directly rooted in the physical reality of life on Earth than the Sidereal Zodiac based upon the distant stars.”

It is also quite ridiculous to assert that the millions of people who use western astrology and have found it to be accurate for their own lives, including some on this forum, are just wrong because it’s not the ancient system. People should use what works for them, if you feel drawn to vedic astrology and find it accurate for your own life that’s fine but that doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong. Some astrologers come to the same conclusion about a person when reading both vedic and western charts as a whole. Western astrology can also be used for accurate predictions and has been many times. Why in your view has western astrology remained so popular if it’s apparently ineffective? If it was so inaccurate why do so many people feel it accurately reflects them and their personality? Both systems can be used effectively just as modern medicine and traditional remedies can both be used to maintain health.

Anyway I don’t have anything against you, if you want to pursue eastern systems than that’s fine different people are drawn to different belief systems that resonate and work for them. Each person’s path is individual and what might work for one does not work for the other. I have personally found western astrology to be accurate in my case and I never resonated with vedic astrology or eastern systems if you do that’s fine just don’t assume that everyone else is wrong in an appeal to tradition fallacy.

Let's be honest, owen isn't exactly an authority regarding astrology

[Raven]

The big secret in the know is the big western astrologers all use sidereal when it comes to themselves and their own private work as it works. They mention they use topical for clients because they want this despite its not workable. They want to make money.

How hard is it to just adjust the 12 signs to where the stars really are adjust for procession and put the lunar mansions into the chart that is all they would have to do to fix western astrology that is what it used to look like before the church banned astrology.

I hope you're right about Vedic astrology, I personally have noticed a lot of issues with the western variation.

[HPSZolaLuckyStar]

"Let's be honest, owen isn't exactly an authority regarding astrology"

the e-mail you used to register is a spammer account. And your first post is to make a derogatory remark. If you come in here simply to attack people, you're going to get yourself removed.

[Raven]

"Let's be honest, owen isn't exactly an authority regarding astrology"

the e-mail you used to register is a spammer account. And your first post is to make a derogatory remark. If you come in here simply to attack people, you're going to get yourself removed.

I didn't want to use my real email. Owen wasn't willing to have a conversation about whether Vedic astrology was superior over western, so not sure how me saying what I did was derogatory. I'm not an expert or authority either, but I'm also not going to make arguments on something I don't know or am not willing to attempt to validate.

[Raven]

Actually I haven't even heard much about vedic astrology, mageson might have explained it the best I've seen actually.

[HPSZolaLuckyStar]

Raven, I'm not coming down on you. Merely letting you know.


I will welcome you until (and if) you give me a reason not to. same with astral warrior. My apologies if this seems cold. Understand I'm in a fight here. I want the T4S to be a nice place. Not a shithole as it was allowed to be previously.

I am in the process of cleaning up this place. Its not going to be a shithole of toxicity anymore; this means when people come in to make problems (and there are several who have a personal obsession to try to do so), they must and will be removed. I'm clarifying this. Its a bit of a battlefield. Sometimes people get caught in the crossfire. I'm sorry for those but you can thank the people attacking this place for the necessity.

"I'm also not going to make arguments on something I don't know or am not willing to attempt to validate."

That is very wise.